One thing I'm still trying to wrap my head around...

[daCat]

Okay. Methinks this requires a bit of a history lesson. Let’s again get into the Way Back Machine and go back to the 19th Century, for most of which, we had no true national immigration policy.

While there were certainly tensions when Northern European immigrants — like the Irish, who were once considered by their continental counterparts as mutts and not “white”, for whatever fucked up reason — it took us until 1882, with the Chinese Exclusion Act, to set any sort of policy excluding people from immigrating, legal or otherwise.

To distill all of this down, we were mostly cool with immigrants coming over if they mostly looked like us... that is to say, white. It was only when a small group — .002% of the population — came over and who looked and acted more foreign — that we took action.

Before that? The 1790 Naturalization Act was all we had, which states “any alien, being a free white person,” can become a citizen after living here a number of years. This law still technically stands, and has been circumvented liberally over the years.

Let’s jump to the 1924 Immigration Act, which gave caps and quotas. These were largely preferential to Northern and Western European folks, while vastly curtailing those from “less-white nations”.

The first attempt to curtail immigration from Central and South America came in the 60’s. Before that time, there was an influx/efflux of Mexican immigration. This ended in 1965.

My point is, illegal immigration is a much newer issue than some purport it to be. But, it’s still predicated on the same basic logic as all prior immigration laws have been based, which is a hierarchy of desirability, with whiter nations occupying the higher strata.

I've seen estimates of between 11 to 30 million illegal immigrants from south of the border. This is a problem to me, and I doubt I'm alone. Not that all illegals are from the south. Unchecked, this has affected our economy. The further from the US/Mexican border you are, the less the effect, but it has spread a good ways by this point. Especially south central and western US. By utilizing the proper channels (visas of one form or another) this shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise we might as well declare an end to sovereignty.

I sometimes wonder if people who argue open borders really understand the scope of the issue.

[tOSUfanboi2]

I would want them to be normal.

Okay, who do you think has a better chance of being normal? The guy who spent his childhood playing with blocks, or the one who barely survived between traumatic events and has severe PTSD?

I swear, the way you guys twist yourselves into knots trying to justify this insanity just blows my mind. Damn near every country on earth does its best to ensure that it doesn’t let just anyone come there and do whatever they want, let alone use their social programs and breed like rabbits. Hell, you can’t get into Canada AT ALL with a record, meanwhile we’re cycling thousands of non-citizens through our justice system on a daily basis. It’s a fucking joke.

[DPR]

Okay, who do you think has a better chance of being normal? The guy who spent his childhood playing with blocks, or the one who barely survived between traumatic events and has severe PTSD?

I swear, the way you guys twist yourselves into knots trying to justify this insanity just blows my mind. Damn near every country on earth does its best to ensure that it doesn’t let just anyone come there and do whatever they want, let alone use their social programs and breed like rabbits. Hell, you can’t get into Canada AT ALL with a record, meanwhile we’re cycling thousands of non-citizens through our justice system on a daily basis. It’s a fucking joke.

Do you really think people risked their lives to travel all the way from Sudan to just...shoot your kids?

[DPR]

I've seen estimates

"many people are saying"

Pretty interesting how daCat demands absolute proof of something that may be incriminating towards a conservative or conservative policy but is willing to believe any rumor out there when it suits his unchecked hatred of immigrants.

[Deschet]

I've seen estimates of between 11 to 30 million illegal immigrants from south of the border. This is a problem to me, and I doubt I'm alone. Not that all illegals are from the south. Unchecked, this has affected our economy. The further from the US/Mexican border you are, the less the effect, but it has spread a good ways by this point. Especially south central and western US. By utilizing the proper channels (visas of one form or another) this shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise we might as well declare an end to sovereignty.

I sometimes wonder if people who argue open borders really understand the scope of the issue.

And, as I’ve said on numerous occasions, this problem is threefold:

1. So long as jobs exist that go unworked by citizens, there will be a demand for those jobs.

2. So long as companies continue to hire illegal immigrants, this influx of illegal immigrants will go unchecked.

3. So long as companies are allowed to hire illegal immigrants, also virtually-unchecked, salaries will remain so low as to almost exclusively attract migrant workers.

[tOSUfanboi2]

Do you really think people risked their lives to travel all the way from Sudan to just...shoot your kids?

No? I’m not saying they’re bad people, I’m saying they’re traumatized due to their life experiences and they’re liable to bring shit into our society that previously wasn’t an issue. Like I don’t know, honor killings, acid attacks, grenade attacks on police stations, and rape/grooming gangs to name a few. None of those things were an issue at all in Europe prior to mass migration from the ME, and now they are. Do you want to live in a society where those things happen? Because I don’t.

[tOSUfanboi2]

And, as I’ve said on numerous occasions, this problem is threefold:

1. So long as jobs exist that go unworked by citizens, there will be a demand for those jobs.

2. So long as companies continue to hire illegal immigrants, this influx of illegal immigrants will go unchecked.

3. So long as companies are allowed to hire illegal immigrants, also virtually-unchecked, salaries will remain so low as to almost exclusively attract migrant workers.

We have millions of citizens who would do those jobs, for fair wages and benefits. Unfortunately, those jobs are currently being taken by people who will work very hard for next to nothing, and businesses aren’t punished for it. The answer? Exclude migrants from access to all social programs/benefits and fine the ever loving fuck out of anyone hiring illegal immigrants and/or paying below minimum wage.

[Deschet]

We have millions of citizens who would do those jobs, for fair wages and benefits. Unfortunately, those jobs are currently being taken by people who will work very hard for next to nothing, and businesses aren’t punished for it. The answer? Exclude migrants from access to all social programs/benefits and fine the ever loving fuck out of anyone hiring illegal immigrants and/or paying below minimum wage.

I’m glad you went there. You’re exactly right. But, the things I mentioned all prevent fair wages from being fair.

The answer? Yes. Fine them into oblivion. That’s it. But, guess which side will never, ever go there?

[tOSUfanboi2]

I’m glad you went there. You’re exactly right. But, the things I mentioned all prevent fair wages from being fair.

The answer? Yes. Fine them into oblivion. That’s it. But, guess which side will never, ever go there?

Look man, I don’t hate immigrants. Most of them in my experience are great people and I’m happy to call a lot of them friends and coworkers. I just want to make sure we’re taking the necessary steps to ensure we’re getting more of those people and less shit bags who are going to sell drugs and/or kill people. People like DPR can think that everyone who escapes a hostile situation just wants peace, but that’s not reality. Some of these people bring their problems with them, and we need to do everything we can to limit that.

The reason I get pissed is because my wages and the wages of other working class Americans are being artificially suppressed due to this fucked up system we have. Not only are illegal immigrants exploited to fuck and back (which we also get the blow back from in the form of crime in our neighborhoods), but our opportunities to escape are becoming increasingly scarce because of increased competition. This isn’t about race or nationality, it’s class and economics.

[General_Grantlocks]

Okay. Methinks this requires a bit of a history lesson. Let’s again get into the Way Back Machine and go back to the 19th Century, for most of which, we had no true national immigration policy.

While there were certainly tensions when Northern European immigrants — like the Irish, who were once considered by their continental counterparts as mutts and not “white”, for whatever fucked up reason — it took us until 1882, with the Chinese Exclusion Act, to set any sort of policy excluding people from immigrating, legal or otherwise.

To distill all of this down, we were mostly cool with immigrants coming over if they mostly looked like us... that is to say, white. It was only when a small group — .002% of the population — came over and who looked and acted more foreign — that we took action.

Before that? The 1790 Naturalization Act was all we had, which states “any alien, being a free white person,” can become a citizen after living here a number of years. This law still technically stands, and has been circumvented liberally over the years.

Let’s jump to the 1924 Immigration Act, which gave caps and quotas. These were largely preferential to Northern and Western European folks, while vastly curtailing those from “less-white nations”.

The first attempt to curtail immigration from Central and South America came in the 60’s. Before that time, there was an influx/efflux of Mexican immigration. This ended in 1965.

My point is, illegal immigration is a much newer issue than some purport it to be. But, it’s still predicated on the same basic logic as all prior immigration laws have been based, which is a hierarchy of desirability, with whiter nations occupying the higher strata.

It blew my mind the first time I learned that there were basically no immigration laws until the Chinese exclusion acts and subsequent court cases.

Immigration laws here are fundamentally racially based from the genesis, as is the subsequent law that still stands today . Plessy v. Furgeson may have been overturned, but all the crazy racist decisions in immigration from the late 1800's and early 1900's are still on the books and drive a lot of the case law to this day.

[General_Grantlocks]

Look man, I don’t hate immigrants. Most of them in my experience are great people and I’m happy to call a lot of them friends and coworkers. I just want to make sure we’re taking the necessary steps to ensure we’re getting more of those people and less shit bags who are going to sell drugs and/or kill people. People like DPR can think that everyone who escapes a hostile situation just wants peace, but that’s not reality. Some of these people bring their problems with them, and we need to do everything we can to limit that.

The reason I get pissed is because my wages and the wages of other working class Americans are being artificially suppressed due to this fucked up system we have. Not only are illegal immigrants exploited to fuck and back (which we also get the blow back from in the form of crime in our neighborhoods), but our opportunities to escape are becoming increasingly scarce because of increased competition. This isn’t about race or nationality, it’s class and economics.

I certainly wish our immigration system could be reformed to be about economics instead of race and nationality.

[Deschet]

It blew my mind the first time I learned that there were basically no immigration laws until the Chinese exclusion acts and subsequent court cases.

Immigration laws here are fundamentally racially based from the genesis, as is the subsequent law that still stands today . Plessy v. Furgeson may have been overturned, but all the crazy racist decisions in immigration from the late 1800's and early 1900's are still on the books and drive a lot of the case law to this day.

Pretty much. Yeah.

[daCat]

Try to get a worker visa from Canada. It's a snap from Mexico, but not Canada. You know, that country to the north that speaks virtually the same language and only slightly varies in culture.

[DSMoneypit]

I think in India’s case there’s a much better chance they just don’t know. It’s pretty hard to keep track of a billion people, especially when a large percentage of them are basically living in third world conditions.

2/3s of their population they don't even want to acknowledge. I have no doubt they have no clue how many people actually died from covid.

[tOSUfanboi2]

2/3s of their population they don't even want to acknowledge. I have no doubt they have no clue how many people actually died from covid.

Yeah, China is lying, India is just straight up incompetent.