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  • sctrojan
    replied
    Originally posted by DPR View Post



    I think third party voting is helpful to send a note to both parties, but in reality, neither party actually gives a shit. Voting for the opposition when the party in power is being awful can send a clear message too. It could also go a long way to fixing both political parties if they know they can't take their base for granted every 2-4 years.
    Actually DPR you bring up a great way to essentially bring "centrism"

    its like when kids bowl you put up rails on each side so that kids never throw gutter balls. The balls keep bouncing from either side until they essentially hit the center pin. American voters are like kids - they can never seem to vote for good competent people (mostly republicans)

    Keep voting for the other party when the ruling party goes off the rails like the Trump govt.

    Leave a comment:


  • DPR
    replied
    Originally posted by DSMoneypit View Post

    I'm sorry, do you have me confused with someone who votes Republican? I haven't cast my vote for a Republican, at any level, since I voted for McCain. I've voted for an independent or not voted at all in every election since.
    You tend to attack Democrats far more frequently than Republicans though. Maybe that's due to the composition of the board, but it's just how I see things. And since elections are unfortunately binary and you had to fall on one side, I'd wager you'd consistently fall in lot with the GOP every election.

    You're absolutely right that the Republican party has not really tried to get the black vote. I think the traditional Republican values are more suited to a healthier nation, but this bastardization of democratic spending and religious right oppression disgusts me. As does the current everyone who doesn't vote Democrat is a homophobic nazi.
    I think referencing everyone is a nazi who doesn't vote Democrat is a bit of a straw man built by Republicans themselves. I'm sure some liberals say it, but most don't. However, given all that, it is pretty damn hard to maintain a level of polite disagreements over politics with people who refuse to vote Democrat when the GOP is openly hostile to multiple minority groups that don't have the political power on their own to fight back. When I see two parties where one will win an election, and one of those parties is trying to block minority groups from their right to vote and the other is trying to empower them, that's a pretty easy decision for me on who to support. Even if it is just for 1 election, sending a clear message that racial disenfranchisement is never to be tolerated. But, unfortunately, that has never happened to Republicans and because of that, they will continue doing it.

    I think third party voting is helpful to send a note to both parties, but in reality, neither party actually gives a shit. Voting for the opposition when the party in power is being awful can send a clear message too. It could also go a long way to fixing both political parties if they know they can't take their base for granted every 2-4 years.

    For example, if Obama won with 60% to McCain's 35%, do you think the GOP would immediately dig their heels in and object to every single thing he did hoping to solidify their base against him? Or would they realign their party a bit to capture more voters and expand their tent? If Trump won 60% to Clinton's 35%, do you think Democrats would be eager to impeach him or do you think they'd reconsider their entire party platform and who is in charge and cycle out the Pelosis and Clintons and Schumers in favor of younger, fresher faces?

    I dunno, I think it's worth considering. We never have landslides anymore and I actually think that is a major problem. We haven't had a candidate crack 53% of the vote since HW in '88. It used to be pretty common to crack 55% and even 60%. Obama's big win in 2008 was only 52.9% and that was on the heels of a major recession, skyrocketing debt and deficits, 5k+ dead in Iraq and more and more proof coming out that it was built on a lie, torture reports, loss of liberties, domestic spying etc etc. The GOP did everything they could to ruin their political clout for a generation and yet they barely suffered at all for it.

    Don't you think that is a problem? I mean, you voted for McCain. Do you think voting Republican in 2008 really sent the right message that what the GOP was doing was fine? If Hillary won in 2016 and drove us off a cliff with COVID, I'd be voting for a Republican president for the first time in my life this November. I think parties aren't getting truly punished anymore and that's the key issue. At least not in the last 20 years.

    Leave a comment:


  • DSMoneypit
    replied
    Originally posted by DPR View Post
    I think the larger overall point though is that while Democrats have come up short on black issues for years, that in and of itself isn't some fantastic reason to vote for a Republican, especially someone like Trump.

    DSM, you criticize Democrats for simply using black voters and maybe there is, at times, truth to that. But on the other end, Republicans openly try to prevent them from voting and do absolutely nothing to court their vote. Their main goal is to make them apathetic and not vote, because that is a win for them. Republicans can't court the black vote and the rural conservative white vote at the same time because they've spent decades dovetailing racial identity into both platforms. I mean, talking about growing up, conservatives around my part would make it a point to make the Democratic Party the black party so white voters would know, if nothing else, that the GOP was the party for them.
    I'm sorry, do you have me confused with someone who votes Republican? I haven't cast my vote for a Republican, at any level, since I voted for McCain. I've voted for an independent or not voted at all in every election since.

    You're absolutely right that the Republican party has not really tried to get the black vote. I think the traditional Republican values are more suited to a healthier nation, but this bastardization of democratic spending and religious right oppression disgusts me. As does the current everyone who doesn't vote Democrat is a homophobic nazi.

    Leave a comment:


  • DSMoneypit
    replied
    Originally posted by DPR View Post

    Criticizing the program and blasting Horton's mugshot everywhere are different things. And Gore was a southern white Democrat from Tennessee in 1988. It would not surprise me in the least if he courted the racist vote back then. Again, this speaks to what kind of a "progressive" can get elected in a state like Tennessee. Or Arkansas. Or Georgia.



    Sure, I just think corrupt black politicians get a little bit of extra vinegar in attacks than white corrupt politicians. I'm fully aware black politicians can be corrupt. I've lived in DC and Baltimore the past decade. Baltimore elected Sheila Dixon and then she was sent to prison for fraud. SRB was lame but not inherently corrupt. Then Pugh came along and went to prison for fraud. Now Dixon is leading the charge to win her old office back. I honestly don't understand what black voters in Baltimore see in her but she's got a political machine behind her.

    I mean, we can talk about how absurdly corrupt Bethel AME church is in Baltimore, constantly churning out mayors and city councilmembers. But you can't say it out loud without being branded a racist or anti-Christian or whatever. It is what it is. But I don't see that as more corrupt than powerful white churches in rural areas controlling everything.
    It's not.

    But this discussion is about why the democratic party fails the black community. And a back country Christian town is, more likely than not, never going to vote for a Democrat. Since most minorities tend to live in the larger municipality areas, the corruption around those areas is more widely documented. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a crap ton of corrupt small town sheriffs. They just tend to A) not make the news much and B) For the most part don't harm their constituents. They just rob travelers blind with civil asset forfeitures, etc...

    Leave a comment:


  • DPR
    replied
    I think the larger overall point though is that while Democrats have come up short on black issues for years, that in and of itself isn't some fantastic reason to vote for a Republican, especially someone like Trump.

    DSM, you criticize Democrats for simply using black voters and maybe there is, at times, truth to that. But on the other end, Republicans openly try to prevent them from voting and do absolutely nothing to court their vote. Their main goal is to make them apathetic and not vote, because that is a win for them. Republicans can't court the black vote and the rural conservative white vote at the same time because they've spent decades dovetailing racial identity into both platforms. I mean, talking about growing up, conservatives around my part would make it a point to make the Democratic Party the black party so white voters would know, if nothing else, that the GOP was the party for them.

    Leave a comment:


  • DPR
    replied
    Originally posted by DSMoneypit View Post
    Well ask Al Gore if he attacked Dukakis because of Horton's race, you know, considering how he was the one who started the attacks.
    Criticizing the program and blasting Horton's mugshot everywhere are different things. And Gore was a southern white Democrat from Tennessee in 1988. It would not surprise me in the least if he courted the racist vote back then. Again, this speaks to what kind of a "progressive" can get elected in a state like Tennessee. Or Arkansas. Or Georgia.

    Because that's been my personal experiences. People like Larry Langford and Ben Little were the tips of the Iceberg. The city of anniston built a brand new school building in the mid 90s and had to close it because a councilman took bribes from a construction company. It took them several years to fix all of the construction errors and reopen. I can't remember all of the names of the councilman that took bribes from Monsanto, but they helped poison the land for generations to come.
    I'm not saying it's all black politicians, or all democrats or republicans, but my personal experiences growing up have been that these people don't do anything to help their communities. They use their positions to profit. Perhaps my childhood experiences have prejudiced me against politicians in general.
    Sure, I just think corrupt black politicians get a little bit of extra vinegar in attacks than white corrupt politicians. I'm fully aware black politicians can be corrupt. I've lived in DC and Baltimore the past decade. Baltimore elected Sheila Dixon and then she was sent to prison for fraud. SRB was lame but not inherently corrupt. Then Pugh came along and went to prison for fraud. Now Dixon is leading the charge to win her old office back. I honestly don't understand what black voters in Baltimore see in her but she's got a political machine behind her.

    I mean, we can talk about how absurdly corrupt Bethel AME church is in Baltimore, constantly churning out mayors and city councilmembers. But you can't say it out loud without being branded a racist or anti-Christian or whatever. It is what it is. But I don't see that as more corrupt than powerful white churches in rural areas controlling everything.

    Leave a comment:


  • DSMoneypit
    replied
    Originally posted by DPR View Post

    Dog ears prick up.

    https://apnews.com/e632316dc18e8964cae0e1088b317014

    16 states offered some form of a furlough to convicted murderers.

    "Since the Massachusetts program began in 1972, 117,700 furloughs were granted to 10,553 inmates. Of the 426 escapes, 11 occurred during the 4,908 furloughs granted to first-degree murderers."

    I mean, seems like Horton was one of the rare exceptions. Wasn't it you just complaining about how rare police shootings give a bad look to an entire program? Wouldn't singling out Horton to attack Dukakis on crime, when many other states had similar programs and the program itself seemed to be fairly successful, be grossly misleading, unfair and ruin an entire concept in our correctional system? Bonus points for him being black though. I'm sure HW's campaign was really thrilled. What, with Lee fucking Atwater running his campaign. Atwater, of "n**ger n**ger n**ger" fame. You really think that attack was primarily a policy disagreement? Because el oh el.
    Well ask Al Gore if he attacked Dukakis because of Horton's race, you know, considering how he was the one who started the attacks.

    I too, enjoy pulling random numbers out of my ass.



    You grew up in the south, right? I mean, let's be real here. Pre-1990 southern Democrats were racist as fuck.



    You're someone who thinks all politicians are corrupt. Why do you need to single out the black city councilmembers as particularly corrupt?
    Because that's been my personal experiences. People like Larry Langford and Ben Little were the tips of the Iceberg. The city of anniston built a brand new school building in the mid 90s and had to close it because a councilman took bribes from a construction company. It took them several years to fix all of the construction errors and reopen. I can't remember all of the names of the councilman that took bribes from Monsanto, but they helped poison the land for generations to come.
    I'm sure there are plenty of people only in it for themselves. But if you start accusing black politicians of not caring about black communities we're going into No True Scot territory.
    I'm not saying it's all black politicians, or all democrats or republicans, but my personal experiences growing up have been that these people don't do anything to help their communities. They use their positions to profit. Perhaps my childhood experiences have prejudiced me against politicians in general.

    Leave a comment:


  • DPR
    replied
    Originally posted by TTURedRaider View Post
    If Democrats were true allies they would put some black people in true positions of power. Rather than letting the same old white people run everything no matter what happens in elections. I mean they could have made Rep. John Lewis Speaker rather than letting Pelosi do it a second time.
    Barack Obama GIFs | Tenor

    Obama nominated more black judges for federal roles than any other president. Nominated the first and second black attorneys general. Hired a black Nat Sec Adv. Oh, and if you'll notice, he's got a year-round tan.

    House Democrats made Jim Clyburn their #3 in 2006, a role he's held since. He's also the de facto king maker in the Democratic Primary 2 elections in a row.

    How the fuck did Nancy Pelosi pass by this guy? I mean other than being white and using her position in Congress to profit more than he did. So she has more money so they put her in charge.
    Maybe Lewis didn't want it? And Pelosi was the first female leader. I feel like you'd attack them either way.

    Leave a comment:


  • DPR
    replied
    Originally posted by DSMoneypit View Post
    But they love to put loopholes in those taxes so it doesn't affect their wealthy friends.
    The furlough program that Al Gore had a problem with? Also, you can't offer low hanging fruit like that to a political opponent. That was a stupid program and shoukd have been painted in as bright of colors as you could. Furloughing violent criminals is idiotic and soft on crime.
    Dog ears prick up.

    https://apnews.com/e632316dc18e8964cae0e1088b317014

    16 states offered some form of a furlough to convicted murderers.

    "Since the Massachusetts program began in 1972, 117,700 furloughs were granted to 10,553 inmates. Of the 426 escapes, 11 occurred during the 4,908 furloughs granted to first-degree murderers."

    I mean, seems like Horton was one of the rare exceptions. Wasn't it you just complaining about how rare police shootings give a bad look to an entire program? Wouldn't singling out Horton to attack Dukakis on crime, when many other states had similar programs and the program itself seemed to be fairly successful, be grossly misleading, unfair and ruin an entire concept in our correctional system? Bonus points for him being black though. I'm sure HW's campaign was really thrilled. What, with Lee fucking Atwater running his campaign. Atwater, of "n**ger n**ger n**ger" fame. You really think that attack was primarily a policy disagreement? Because el oh el.

    I think almost 60% of democrats couldn't care less about helping the blck community.
    I too, enjoy pulling random numbers out of my ass.

    At least that's been my experience growing up.
    You grew up in the south, right? I mean, let's be real here. Pre-1990 southern Democrats were racist as fuck.

    You grew up in rural Illinois. I'd imagine your first experience with minorities was in college. I grew up in subsidized housing. I grew up around poor black people. I won't say I know their struggles, because even being a poor white person in a mostly black community, I still didn't have all of the hardships they did. I did see how voting in democratic council members only bred corruption. I did hear the lies about how they were going to make their lives better, only all the council members did was gather donations, and move to the rich side of town.
    You're someone who thinks all politicians are corrupt. Why do you need to single out the black city councilmembers as particularly corrupt?

    So no, I don't think the only part of the democratic party that's against truly helping minorities are the "NIMBYS" because those councilmen I'm speaking of were minorities themselves. I don't believe any party really wants to help their less fortunate constituents and it's why I won't vote for either party. If there's a good candidate who's rinning third party, they'll get my vote. This goes all the way down to local elections.
    I'm sure there are plenty of people only in it for themselves. But if you start accusing black politicians of not caring about black communities we're going into No True Scot territory.

    Leave a comment:


  • Foster4Prez
    replied
    Originally posted by DSMoneypit View Post
    Let me spell out why you're a fucking moron. The majority of welfare recipients are white. So no, the reason welfare isn't expanding is not because of racism.

    Though I will give you credit about the credit. Minorities are the victim of the high interest loans and requirements for higher collateral/down payments. There are a multitude of reasons for this which are not all due to systemic racism. But yes, they're disproportionately target for those things
    Yay - DSMoney is playing "Fun with misleading statistics" again. Yes, the majority of welfare recipients are white. But that's because non-hispanic white people are by far the vast majority of people in America. When you look at what race is most impacted by welfare, white people don't even scratch the surface.

    Source (I know it's old but it was the best comprehensive one I could find quickly): https://www.nap.edu/read/9719/chapter/8

    TABLE 7–1 Participation Rates of Households in Means-Tested Welfare Programs, 1994–1996 (percent)
    AFDC Food Stamps Medicaid Housing Assistance
    Hispanic 11.8 20.1 24.5 9.1
    Non-Hispanic White 2.7 5.7 8.3 3.5
    Non-Hispanic Black 14.0 23.3 27.0 15.3
    American Indian and Aleut. Eskimo 15.6 24.5 43.8 11.4
    Asian and Pacific Islander 4.9 7.1 13.5 5.

    Leave a comment:


  • Foster4Prez
    replied
    Originally posted by DSMoneypit View Post
    I'm sorry, are you trying to imply that Biden didn't just say one of the more racist things I've heard from a presidential candidate? I mean, trashing on Dynasty for posting multiple threads on the same topic is one thing, he's not entirely wrong for this one though.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...terview-274490
    “Where has the Democratic Party gone?” Trump asked reporters Tuesday at the White House. “Where have they gone, where they’re defending these two people over the state of Israel? And I think any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat, I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty.”

    Asked by a reporter Wednesday to clarify his remarks, Trump pointed to his own record, including moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem and withdrawing from the Iran nuclear deal.

    “I will tell you this: In my opinion, the Democrats have gone very far away from Israel,” he said. “I cannot understand how they can do that … In my opinion, if you vote for a Democrat, you’re being very disloyal to Jewish people and you’re being very disloyal to Israel. And only weak people would say anything other than that.”

    Leave a comment:


  • sctrojan
    replied
    Biden should explain that blacks who vote for Trump are "real blacks" just like Trump claims people who didn't vote for him aren't "real American people"


    Case closed

    Leave a comment:


  • sctrojan
    replied
    Originally posted by TTURedRaider View Post
    If Democrats were true allies they would put some black people in true positions of power. Rather than letting the same old white people run everything no matter what happens in elections. I mean they could have made Rep. John Lewis Speaker rather than letting Pelosi do it a second time.

    John Lewis - Assumed office January 3, 1987
    Since 1991, Lewis has been senior chief deputy whip in the Democratic caucus.

    Nancy Pelosi - Assumed office June 2, 1987
    In 2001, Pelosi was elected the House minority whip, second-in-command to Minority Leader Dick Gephardt of Missouri. She was the first woman in U.S. history to hold that post.

    How the fuck did Nancy Pelosi pass by this guy? I mean other than being white and using her position in Congress to profit more than he did. So she has more money so they put her in charge.
    Pelosi has been masterful at being speaker - why are you knocking her - she got ACA passed and trump impeached.

    We have had more blacks in congress than you people so fuck off trying to lecture us.

    TTU - if you want to vote for Trump please vote for Trump but don't come here justifying your vote for Trump because Democrats didn't elect a black speaker. We elected a black president so that fucking nullifies all your agruments - go sit down and fuck off until Repubs nominate a black person for president

    Leave a comment:


  • Deschet
    replied
    Originally posted by DSMoneypit View Post

    Aside from your obvious hatred of anything with an R in front of it, you're not entirely wrong. Do suburbanites tend to vote Republican when a Democrat is in office? Yes. In the past that was more about taxes. Republican congresses tend to put more dollars in the pockets of the middle and upper classes, where as democratic congresses tend to put more money in the hands of the 1% and people of the nation that live below the poverty line. So obviously they're going to vote in their best interest. Our government has been buying votes through tax dollars since forever. It's why we're stuck with the god damned 2 party system we have.

    Where you're mostly wrong is assuming that the reason yall lost in 68 was because of the civil rights movement. Did it cost some votes in the southern states? Yes, I'm sure it did. But as has been proven countless times, you can sweep the south and still lose. No, what cost that election was Vietnam. Rightly or wrongly, the escalation of that crisis was placed purely on Johnson.

    You're also wrong on thinking the democrats want to help the black community. They want to use the black community to garner political power, the same way republicans use religion to keep their base. None of the leaders of those parties could give 2 shits about their constituents. The Democrats use the "we will do all we can to lift your community, but those ravist Republicans will fight us tooth and nail. They'regonna try and put you back in chains". The Republicans will say "We're Christian like you, we're gonna fight to end abortion and protect your churches, but Democrats will fight us tooth and nail. They're gonna start taxing your churches and make it so you can't practice your religion".

    So get off me about the "REASON" the Democrats haven't done more for the black community is because "Republicans".
    Quality post. I don’t disagree with much herein.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deschet
    replied
    Originally posted by DSMoneypit View Post

    All of this is true and sadly, even when this piece of shit is out of office, nothing substantial will change. The only thing that will change is that more of our money will get taken in taxes for it to be wasted on other pet projects. There will be no reform of the crininal justice system, they won't close down the for profit prison system and the pipline it funds. They sure as hell won't do anything to try and close the racial divide.

    We need a viable and moderate 3rd party. One that can find a middle ground to help heal this country.
    You just found the only thing about which there is no debate between the GOP and DNC: neither want a viable third party.

    Leave a comment:

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